My guest today is Dawna Gonzales, a fellow 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu black belt, self defense instructor, life coach, and longtime friend of mine.
Welcome to the Dayslayer Podcast where you and I level up our lives by talking to VJJ practitioners from all walks of life. I'm Patrick Alamedian and I'm a Brazilian Jujitsu Black Belt,
retired competitor and coach at 10th Planet Jujitsu, any bravos 10th Planet Jujitsu in downtown Los Angeles. And today my guest is Donna Gonzalez,
a fellow 10th Planet Jujitsu Black Belt. Belt, women's self -defense coach, life coach, and also a longtime friend of mine. Donna, welcome. - Thank you.
Thank you for having me, Patrick, I'm excited. - Yeah, thanks for being here today. So I think the first, the way I'd like to start this, 'cause there's a lot of things I wanna dig into with women's self -defense and your trajectory into Jujitsu and to this day,
by the way, by the way, by the way, by the way, by the way. But the first thing I'd like to start with is just tell me about the first, your first day starting Jujitsu. That's always a good place to start,
right? Like why, what made you show up that day? What was it like? What was surprising? Yeah, just tell me a little bit about that. - Yeah, it was not intentional.
I kind of stumbled into class. I said no idea what I was talking about. getting into. So back in 2007, eight -ish, I can't exactly, I don't remember exactly, but circa 2007,
2008, I was training at Legends in Hollywood. And I was there for the kickboxing classes and the MMA workout classes. And I had friends that also trained there.
We were, you know, young and single. single. And one day, Charlene, who is now a Cobrenia Black Belt, one day, she and I were hanging out after class and Eddie walked past and she was like,
"Hey, Eddie, can we take your class?" We were in like tank tops and booty shorts, you know, fresh out of kickboxing. And Eddie was like, "Yeah, get on the mats." Nobody bothered to show us anything.
Like, "No, this is how you break. "This is how you break. fall this is what guard is this is what amounted like nothing like anything like jump in so with no context or anything we just started like nothing we were like rolling around like holding on to each other and would let the other one move and it was it was a funny situation but the reason I kept going back was because everybody was just so cool like all
the guys were just so friendly and and helpful. Even though like nobody taught us the fundamentals, everybody was like, let me show you this. Even though we had no context for what they were talking about.
So that's it. Like it was a very accidental thing. I liked training at the gym. It was a fun place to be. And the option was go out to nightclubs, go out, you know, partying because it was Hollywood and I was young at the time.
Or it would come to this gym and hang out with these cool people. And this felt a lot better. This was one of those things where, you know, in Hollywood, if you spend enough time,
everybody wants something from you. Everything's about a social climb and how you can benefit me in my career. And coming into the gym and doing jujitsu was the one place that like nobody wanted anything from me.
It was like, do you wanna come be wearing like jujitsu with us? And so I was like, yeah, I wanna, this is fun. So... So my first day in class was, I can't remember what Eddie taught. I have no idea what was going on.
I just remember I liked being there, and I kept coming back. And 16 years has gone by. Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, it sounds like you almost found-- because you were in Hollywood,
and I kind of want to find out about where you're originally from and what you were doing at a time in your life. But it sounds like it was almost like-- Finally I had this like non -clichéed LA Actor thing to do That was exactly it.
That's exactly it. So my brother who got me started at that gym He had been kickboxing in Tempe, Arizona where he was going to ASU.
He was training with Dick Rufus's brother Rick Rufus at his gym out there and so I went to his kickboxing kickboxing class with him a couple of times and I thought it was awesome. I was training at Wildcard Boxing,
which is Freddie Roach's legendary boxing gym. And that was fun for me, but at the time that I started boxing, I was also a massage therapist. And massage and boxing really don't go together.
So I had to pick the one that was my job and paying my bills. And when I stopped being a massage therapist full time, my brother was like, "Hey, I heard about this really quick." MMA gym in Hollywood. You should go and take kickboxing classes.
And I was like, yeah, I'm in. So I went in, I remember the day that I signed up. I went in and I was like, I want to do the kickboxing and the workout classes. And Chris Riley, who was the owner was like,
I tell you what, I'm going to hook you up with like a full membership for this great price and you'll get to take Jiu Jitsu too. And I was like, no, I don't even know what that is, but I'm good. Like I just want to take kickboxing classes.
And he's like, no, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hook you up. You can take whatever you want. And I was like, okay, cool. I'll never. And so I would do the kickboxing classes. I would do what was called the MMA workout class. And I remember I'm going to name drop because it was all good.
You have to write. So Dave Callaghan, who is a writer, he's written like amazing movies, the like, he was training there at the time, he became one of my friends in the kickboxing class and he goes,
let me show you something. And he's showed me how to do a double leg takedown. And I remember going, that's, that's not information that I will ever need in my entire life.
But thank you for that. And then lo and behold, here we are where I'm teaching people how to do double legs now, all these years later. But it was just, it was that place that I could go and there was no social climb.
There was no expectation. of me being like this cool person. It was just like, A, it was an amazing workout that wasn't lifting weights and was fun to do for me.
And it was a fun place to go hang out with people and have a community outside of Hollywood that was healthy. 'Cause a lot of people,
when you're pursuing acting and you're trying to break into the entertainment industry, you do fall into the party. partying and that can lead down all types of pathways of really unhealthy behavior. And this was something that was like this cool lighthouse in what can be sometimes an ugly industry.
- Yeah, yeah. So, and it's funny, bring up Dave Callahan that reminds me of, this is just like a quick anecdote, reminds me of when I first learned, 'cause the last time I saw him, I think,
it was at when I was a kid. uh, 10, when headquarters was that tap out and across the street from where it is now. And, um, and I had just like saw a Gracie breakdown of this like guillotine escape that Conor McGregor had done against Chad Mendes and I,
and I like, I tried it on with Dave in a role. Like I got put in a guillotine and I try it. It's like this actually is a spinning escape. and I just remember how tight his squeeze was and I almost like broke my neck just trying to do that escape and he choked the Dave it was and is awesome.
Every once in a while we'll connect on Instagram He taught me how to do a Peruvian necktie before I ever knew how to escape mount. So there's that Mmm. That's a very template type curriculum.
Yeah Yeah So you talked about so you talked about you so you were a massage therapist. Was that your first job? Basically or career. Oh gosh.
No, I'm one of those people I started working at the Like I think at 15 when they were like you can get a job permit. I was like cool I want a job in LA or in Arizona That at the time I was in Arizona,
so I'm from California. I was born in Northern, California grew up in Pasadena, actually just east of Pasadena, a little city called Monrovia. And then my senior year of high school,
my parents were like, we're moving to Arizona. And I'm like, great timing. Thanks. So I was in Arizona and I was 16. And maybe I was a junior.
I definitely wasn't a senior when I was 16 years old. So I was a junior. And I was able to start working. So I went and I got a job at LA Fitness. So I've been working in like the fitness wellness world pretty much my whole life other than entertainment.
- Okay. And did you all, and then did you go to school like college or anything or no? - I did. I went to Phoenix college, which is a community college in Arizona. And I did sports medicine training there for a couple of years.
- Okay. That's to be confused with University of Phoenix, right? - Correct. No, this was a like a community college Yeah so, yeah, I did sports medicine training there and then I had always wanted to go back to LA and pursue acting so My mom bought me a suitcase and she was like,
you know, go go follow your dreams So I moved back to LA and then I was still working at LA fitness at the time and And hated it it. So then because you're just sitting at the desk all day,
it's not fun, it's not like one of those jobs where you're like, this is great. I'm like, I wasn't training people. So I became a massage therapist because I wanted something that I got to be in charge of my schedule. So started doing massage,
did that for a long time while I pursued acting, like probably 13 years, maybe more. - Oh, wow. So how did you like it? that as a there's a lot of different day job options when you're an actor Or actress,
how did you like obviously you liked it? You did 13 years. I was good at it And it was good money. It was I didn't I could make a Decent living for not full -time hours even though I did work a lot.
So it was great. I made some amazing connections I got to be in people's houses that I would have never in a million years been able to have conversations with, you know, I massaged A -list actors and producers and studio heads,
things like that. So I made some amazing connections. It didn't in the end ever help me with my career, but it was a really interesting experience. And I got to have a lot of really cool cool things,
like experiences and going to parties and having conversations in people's houses and seeing that side of the world that I probably would have never seen had I not been a massage therapist.
And that's what led me eventually to jujitsu because the reason I started training at Wildcard was I was playing pool one night in Culver City with a friend and we met.
met a bunch of guys and one of them turned out to be a professional boxer. So then I was like oh I'm a massage therapist and he was like oh can I get your number so he hired me to massage him and his manager at the time who here comes another name drop here comes another um LA name drop his manager was Sam Simon who's one of the creators of The Simpsons and so Sam would hire me as a massage therapist to to
come and massage him and this fighter who was Laman Brewster, he was a heavy white fighter, he's awesome. So I would go and massage them at Sam's house at his giant mansion in Pacific Palisades and he would tell me stories about being a producer and a director and all these things.
And then he learned that I was a boxing fan, which is how Laman and I became friends. And they were like, you should come train with us as a wild card. So that's how I ended up at Wildcard,
which then eventually led me to having friends within that world. And I don't know if it directly led me to legends, but it was it brought my awareness into the fight world.
So it was something that I was pursuing and wanting to train in and wanting to be connected to, even if it was just as a massage therapist, which is then when my brother was like, I heard about this MMA gym. I was like,
I'm on it. I want to go. I want to be a part of that because that's when UFC was like in its infancy and being really cool. Hmm. Okay. Okay.
And you mentioned, you mentioned Sam Simon and other, and other, these other people that you said you wouldn't, you wouldn't be able to, because of the, because of the nature of your job,
the stars and people and doing, uh, yeah, going to their houses to provide that service there. Um, um, with these like kind of high performing Hollywood people,
uh, that were sort of in positions that you probably, you probably aspired, aspired toward. Totally. Yeah. Oh yeah. I got to like go to like cool actresses houses and, you know,
it was just inspiring if nothing else. So were there any patterns that you noticed across all those people of like, like attributes that it could be negative or positive,
uh, that you found maybe helpful for you but also kind of like oh maybe cautionary tale like maybe both or maybe just one of those. Yeah you know one thing that I did notice is that the people with the most success and who had either the most money or achieved the most in their career were always the people.
who were the most low -key and cool. It was the people who were on the climb that wanted you to know what was going on with them. You know what I mean?
But the people who were the the shock collars or the A -list, they were always the kindest, sweetest, most down -to -earth chill people out of everybody I met.
Hmm. There is one actor. I don't want to say his name, but I will tell you this. There is an actor who is an Academy Award winner I've massaged him both before and after he got his Academy Award before he got his Academy Award And he's an amazing actor.
He's incredibly talented But like I said, I'm not gonna say his name Before his Academy Award. He was cool and chill and nice and friendly and then after he got his Academy Award He's a fucking dick dick.
Oh, it's okay if I cuss. Yeah. Yeah. So I did that. I figured out that I noted it was something that I like, I put in my pocket that I was like, I see you dude,
because I remember when you were cool. Yeah. I mean, it sounds that sounds like someone who who just went he kind of went into autopilot mode with because he probably just after he won that that award,
he got people starting treating him so differently and went into full defensive mode. Yeah. You know they did. You know they did. And it fed into his ego, and he didn't have to follow rules.
And so then he didn't have to be polite to other human beings. But I'll tell you that the people who were writing his check were super fucking nice to me. And I will tell you this, and I don't know if maybe I got lucky or hopefully it was the way that I carried myself.
that in the, you know, 13 plus years that I did massage and I would go to people's homes, I would be alone with them in their homes, I would, you know, you could see how there would be situations where somebody would be inappropriate.
There were only two maybe minor situations where somebody was mildly inappropriate with me and I never felt out of danger and it was never again anybody in power, which is weird from what you hear about Hollywood.
Holly, you would expect people. I was a young girl. I was in my early 20s. I was there by myself. I did do things to be precautionary. Like if I came to your house to give you a massage, whether you're a man or a woman,
if I was alone with you at your house in front of you, I would call somebody like all my friends knew that they might randomly get a phone call from me someday. And I'd be like, Hey, Patrick, I'm at this address giving somebody a massage.
If you don't hear from back for me within 90 minutes. to two hours Just do me a favor and give me a call back 100 % of the time every single person I did that in front of was like that was so smart of you. That was awesome Hmm.
Yeah, it's like sets. It's very non Accusatory, but it still sets a clear a clear X. Well, I mean expectations understatement,
but yeah, it sets a clear just like Warning And the only time I ever had somebody be inappropriate with me was a guy that I maybe accidentally said something like I was telling him a story.
I always assumed that I was friends with my clients. And so I was telling him a story about a party or like a parade that I went to in West Hollywood. And he gleaned off of what I said that I might want him to expose himself to me because I was like,
Oh, my God, they're all these naked people. It was like what's Hollywood? And I And I, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't inviting it in my head, but I can see how me telling him that story about like people behaving wildly might have been like,
he might have been like, "Is she trying to, you know what I mean?" Which I wasn't. And he slightly exposed himself to me and I just walked out of the room. But literally that was the only time in 13 years and it was definitely not somebody in the industry,
if I remember correctly, he was in finance. - Hmm, okay. - Yeah. - That's true. - I could be wrong. I could be wrong. I might be remembering wrong, but that's,
I think I remember him being in finance. - So I have a question that's, it's kind of embarrassing to ask in a recorded one 'cause it's embarrassing that I don't really know for sure. Is it expected that,
'cause I get massages and I always leave my underwear on. - Yeah. - But it's just because I don't know if that, like that. how you're supposed to do or is it is it an option to be because you know there's like glute massages and things like that or get away is that optional is it expected to keep underwear on like what's what's the what's the rules with that.
So the answer to that is it depends it depends on the massage therapist and it depends on you if you are in a facility and if they have any rules for massage therapist. For example, as far as I know massage envy requires their massage therapist.
I actually don't think they have a rule about what you can do as a client. Like you can get naked if you want. They have to drape a certain way and they're not allowed to touch your butt, like your cheeks, which is unfortunately, to be a person who works out a lot and you're like,
I would really like - - It's super important. - But I would say for the most part, it's the massage therapist, what their level of comfort is and what the instructions are that they give you. So when they tell you,
get - take off as much as you're comfortable with If you get fully naked, they don't care most of the time I would say 99 .9 % of the time we we're over at that point like a body is a body We don't care you do you don't apologize to me for your legs not being shaved don't pop like as long as you are you don't smell and You know what I mean,
you're just there to get a massage Yeah at the point where so at the height of how my massage therapy life and how busy I was, I think I was doing around 30 massages a week over a six day period,
maybe a seven day period. So by like my 27th massage, I could not less about what was going on with you. You know what I mean,
as long as I give you the massage that you want, you're going to pay me, wear what you want, sing what you want, listen to what you want. want I don't care Yeah, yeah, you're more worried about your hands and forearms Like I was done so now.
Yeah massage therapists care You do what makes you the most comfortable and it was what is going to allow you to relax the most But the massage therapist certainly doesn't care Hmm.
Okay. Okay. I have one more question about massage, but it'll lead into Some jiu -jitsu and women's self -defense. It sounds like you were really successful and you made yourself really busy in kind of these exclusive circles.
What was your marketing and sales strategy? Did you work with an agency or a bigger brand or were you all on your own and generating all this business yourself? Tell me a little bit about that.
- Oh man, that would have been really smart for me to work with an agency. I wish I was the internet and that would be really smart. something, an idea like that would have been around for me back then. It was all either word of mouth or I worked at a chiropractic office in West Hollywood that was at the time,
probably still is, was the place for everybody in the industry to go. Back in those days, which was like around early to mid -2Ks, the insurance that you got from SAG and production per producers guild and directors guild was outstanding and they gave you like a million visits to chiropractor and massage under under your insurance.
And so people would just come there like every week. And when I say everybody like every, but A list stars were in there getting massages. And so if they really liked you,
they'd be like, Hey, can I call you? Can you come to my house? I'm having an event. Can you come to my event? And then I would, I'll tell you one interesting thing. So I used to live in West Hollywood and I went to Jamba Juice.
I went to all the things around there. I went to all the Jamba Juices and Starbucks and everything and I put up flyers and cards, which now you're like, that's so stupid. You're going to people's houses. Yeah, but I did. And through that,
doing stuff like that, I got a studio head of Sony. I used to go to his house in the hill. He was so cool. cool. I think I got a couple other producers and directors like I stumbled.
I don't, there was nothing intentional on my part other than I would literally just walk around and give people my card or put my flyer up somewhere. I'm like, Hey, can you refer me to a friend?
I kind of stumbled into doing that. My focus was on acting. So literally, to me, it was the, equivalent of waiting for the tables I was not intentionally trying to build a business if I were smarter I would have I would have built something that I could have had whether or not it was me performing the massages But I literally just treated it as if it was waiting tables or baby sitting like to me It was just
whatever my friends and I used to joke. I'd be like, they're like, what are you doing today? I'm like, I'm rubbing people like I didn't care - Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I really liked that in the sense that you,
'cause I've experienced this too. It's like, you get to a point where you are in demand and you would do have a certain clientele that's like, you feel kind of exclusive and you have a brand and you're just,
you're established, but it costs you nothing except your ego to like still continue the marketing machine. And it doesn't cost you anything to put out fly. or to make yourself just make your services available to as many people as possible,
because you never know what could happen from it. But we do feel this sense of like, oh, I'm better than this or, or like people will see that I'm like,
look desperate. And really, like, I at this point, I'm happy to look desperate. Like, I like, I like to, I like to just make our I want to help as many people as possible.
And so I'm, even if business is good, I still will like, you know, I still want to take as many phone calls as possible. I still want to put myself in front of as many people as possible and yeah,
it's just, it doesn't, especially in this day and age with content and social media, it doesn't cost you anything to make yourself available. And then if you are too busy, you know, you can, you can figure out someone else who will,
who will help that person. Or if you are too expensive for them, you can figure out someone else who, who is less expensive because their time is, you know, less scarce. Man, if so, media and the internet as we know it today,
because back then, like we had AOL cats and you know what I mean? Like nothing. So there, there wasn't a world of. marketing available on the internet back then,
but had social media been around in the way that it is today, I would have, maybe, you know what I mean, like I would have probably been a massage envy, but I didn't,
I just, you know, whoever I met, I was like, oh, yeah. And I got really lucky. I'm like, I would go massage something, they'd be like, oh, you, my sister would like them. a massage or my next door neighbor would like a massage.
And then I somehow stumbled into being able to survive in Los Angeles and live on my own as a massage therapist, which is crazy.
- Yeah, I mean, I don't know, with your energy, it's not surprising knowing you, like the positive energy you exude. And so you've done that same thing. thing in the jujitsu world,
especially with the niche of women's self -defense jujitsu. And so one thing I'd like to know is like, what's the main, 'cause it's not easy for someone like me to sell jujitsu to women.
I can touch on, you know, like self -defense, feeling confident, you know, feeling not like scared out of your, out of your skull walking alone at night.
but you know you you You you know are this wave, you know, I can't do what you do And so what is the main message that you that you've really figured out that?
that You know gets women to step into the gym for the first time and opens their mind to the possibility of of actually being able to like Defend themselves and not just to have it.
I guys just like, oh, that's that's a nice to have idea. Mm -hmm I think the biggest thing that works for me like when I'm teaching a seminar or something is Literally my physical appearance.
I am not impressive. I'm five -foot one you know buck 35 on a good day and I I tell every and I you know, I'm definitely on the older scale of of things in our sport.
It's a young person's sport and I'm in my 40s. So I think when I meet people, especially women, I'm like, if I can do this, you can do this. Like I am not impressive. So if I've been able to make it this far in this sport,
and if I've been able to do all of this, there's no way that you can't do it. And that usually what is what helps bring women in like, oh yeah, like this is great. And I think my enthusiasm,
I think just my, my, my personality. personality, I'm very much like, come, come be my friend, come hang out with me, come do this with me. And that's how women are, the women's self -defense program at 10th Plant started.
It was very intentional on the part of Lila and myself that we wanted more training partners who were women. So that's what we did. We created a program where they could come train with us and it was very selfish. I love that scratching your own itch.
Initially, like that's, that's how so many good things start because you don't care Like it's not about the business or the money at first. It's just like oh, this is this helps me selfishly and then Twofold something that I would become so incredibly passionate about and something that I was like,
you know what? Nobody's doing this What were the did you have any like actually? I was gonna ask if you have any like horror stories from like because because we're rolling with men,
it's just I have horror stories for certain dudes just being way too aggro when I was on the come up and, you know, getting someone just like, it's not just exploding on a submission, like,
after I'm tapping and like, you know, taking elbows and knees and all this, and just like really spazzy ways. But we're due in gender, because I imagine with women,
it's either it's frustrating. because people go way too soft like they're at zero or that a hundred Yeah, and that maybe there's not a lot of men that are good at navigating that that middle part of having a technical role Was that do you have any like horror stories or memorable things that really made you like man?
I really got to figure this out memorable things. I'll tell you that Um, I am not generally not a person who's afraid to speak up So I think I've been really lucky in two ways that I'm not afraid to speak up And I've also been incredibly lucky in my training partners.
The guys at 10th Planet HQ, who I essentially came up with have been really amazing people and training partners since the day I got there. So I would say guys didn't start going hard on me until I was a brown ball and a black belt.
I remember distinctly three different situations. I'll tell you one, but I felt I was in... danger. And I don't think he did it on purpose. I literally just don't think he realized how small I was compared to him. Well,
I was rolling with a black belt, he was giant, he's bigger than you. And he put me in a position where he was going to come around me or something like that. And he nailed, which we all do, it wasn't he wasn't an unusual situation.
But he kind of put his knee on my head, like my neck area. And just the pressure of him, he was not put like being mean, just the pressure of him, he was going to come around me or something like that. large his body was compared to mine.
For a second, I was like, Oh, he's gonna break my neck. And I that time I might have been around a blue belt or a purple belt. And at that time, I, in that one situation,
I remember not speaking up in the moment. And then literally right afterwards, feeling like I should have said something, I should have tapped, I should have said something. In that moment, I should have reminded him how small that I am because I don't think he I know he was not.
being mean to me um so that's the one there there have been moments that I regret that I've been like I should have said is there a script you recommend for women or or anyone because I I run into this a lot with my clients I have clients and I have students who are a little bit older and and maybe haven't done sports a long time is there a script you recommend at the beginning of the role like what that sounds
well not at the beginning but you can like so this is what I was gonna say um guys didn't start going hard on me until I was deserving of the fight right but here's what happens now when let's say a younger belt a lower belt comes in and they're like ooh black belt I want to roll with her and they'll start going ham on me what I usually say if I don't have an injury in the beginning I'll always you know hey
this is my injury feel free to go for it just know that I'm ready gonna tap early. - Yeah. - That's what I usually say, whatever it is. 'Cause I'll protect myself. It's always up to us to protect ourselves.
Secondly, if they go so hard that I need to stop them, what I say is, hey, nobody's going to be impressed if you kick my ass. Why don't you use this experience instead to feel my technique?
Take out your muscle. and then see what you can learn from somebody in my position. How do they react to that usually? They usually react pretty well like especially if it's a big dude and I'm like hey look nobody's gonna be impressed that you tapped out the old lady I promise.
No but what you can learn for me is a lot of technique so why don't you you know let me work on you. 'cause you're gonna be able to defend everything that I do and see what you can learn.
- Yeah, no, that would be a helpful thing for a guy to learn. So I imagine in my situation if I put my, like I had some moments in the early stages of Jujitsu where I was just in my own world sometimes and I just had tunnel vision.
And I wasn't taking... into account the person in front of me because I was just for some reason so wrapped up and just like Oh, how do I how do I just get better at this thing and and to be kind of embarrassed by By those words after that and just feeling so absurd It's not me out of that tunnel vision that like self selfish Just like this is all about my I don't you know my training partner My training
partner's health is irrelevant to my story, right? now. And yeah, a little bit of like friendly embarrassment is a good, is a good tactic. That's kind of how I roll with the guys in general.
Like I love to brass them, you know what I mean? There's not a lot of girls and sometimes guys forget that and they say stupid things. And I think I've always been in a position where I can be like, just poke them a little bit and be like,
calm down. But the cool thing is, and you know, for anybody listening, like, you can definitely learn some something from somebody who is a Lot smaller than you especially if they have a bigger toolbox What you can do is try things that you wouldn't normally try on somebody your size or bigger because you can take a little bit more chances with us You can be a little bit more creative You can try things that you
wanted to and you can also test different Defenses and movement that you wouldn't be able to do otherwise when it's an equal strength fight.
- Yeah, that's so wise. I mean, I've always had a bias toward learning from people smaller than me. That's why I originally came to 10th Planet. 'Cause I was just kind of like jock,
former baseball player, weightlifter, six foot. And I was seeing Master Eddie Bravo's videos on YouTube And I was like, "Oh, man, that's so cool." And I was like, "Oh, man, that's so cool." And I was like, "Oh, man, that's so cool." And I was like, "Oh, man, that's so cool." And I was like, "Oh, man, that's so cool." I was like, "Oh, man, that's so cool." you know, he was all, he was,
I could see he was a lighter weight and his general just attitude was like, I'm not an athlete. And I knew like, okay, I can, if I,
if I can just learn the technique that he does and apply to my, my bigger, my bigger frame, like that would be very effective. And I continued to kind of just, when I came across rolling with certain people.
people, I'd really try to not use, I'd sometimes use my athleticism, but I would really try to feel like what are they doing that is,
you know, that's just not what I would think of because I just don't have to do a lot of those things. - Yeah. - So, rewinding back now to like,
you know, with women you've worked with. with on day one, what are some of what's what are some of the biggest barriers they run into, uh, because I've heard you talk about certain positions situations that are triggering.
Yeah. Um, so, so what what are some barriers you you've seen that like stop women from actually being able to like practice or work on a technique and then what how you have you kind of helped them.
work through that? Sure. The number one biggest barrier that I experience is women not willing to be aggressive. They're always like,
Oh, I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to hurt somebody. And I'm like, Yes, you do. We're not, you know, nobody thinks they signed up for a knitting class. If you're here, it's because you want to learn how to fight. And the only way that your partner will get better is if you are aggressive with them at a level that seems realistic.
So that's what I'm trying to say. it. The number one thing is women need to be okay with being aggressive and being strong and using their strength and learning that they are way stronger than they usually give themselves credit for.
And beyond that, I would say that it's not so much a barrier, but being okay with being triggered. I just had a conversation with a young woman this week.
I think she's in her early 20s. tiny thing. Like I tower over her. So if I tower over her, you know she's tiny, tiny, tiny. And what changed for her was me telling her that it's okay to let her partners know when A,
she's being triggered and two, it's okay to like let people know I'm too small for you to roll with me. I don't trust you. I only roll with people that I trust because my body is way too small. And she came up to me and she was like,
"I don't trust you, I don't trust you, I don't to me this morning, actually, and she was like, ever since we had that talk, I feel 10 times better about everything. And she was like, I tell the partners that I roll with what's going on, and that if I start to get triggered to keep going, and I'll just keep working through it.
And also, basically, that I gave her permission to tell people things and be okay with what's going on with her. Because a lot of women think that, oh my God, if I start crying,
or if I start to get triggered, or if I start to panic, I'm somehow... doing a disservice to the world of jujitsu or I'm not being tough enough or I'm not you know what I mean I'm not being I'm I'm getting in the way I'm not harming the other people by me being triggered because they can't do their tough jujitsu if that's the case and that's not true because most people will if you tell them hey I'm working
through some stuff there's a good chance that I might get triggered during this role if I keep if I start crying Please ignore me. I'll tap if I need to get up and leave Hmm. Okay, and is that is that typically like like sexual assault related,
you know, it can be a million things Here's what's interesting Our bodies remember most trauma that happens to us. So yes a hundred percent it could be a sexual assault and that's the pretty much the obvious thing it could be physical abuse and when we were a child like let's say somebody's elbow starts digging into your back where you got hit a lot as a child you could get triggered from that any of us could get
triggered that because our bodies hold in all of this emotion i'll tell you this story um this a massage therapy story yes this is the most i've ever talked about massage in any jujitsu that's what i've done but i was massaging this woman once and keep in mind our bodies hold on to everything that we experienced in that part of our body.
I'm massaging her neck and apparently she had had cancer treatment in her neck and had had surgery and I was just doing a regular massage on her neck and all of a sudden she went stiff,
she got up off the table, looked at me and she was like, "Don't you ever touch me again." And I was like, okay So I left the room. She got dressed.
She came down there. She basically told me go fuck myself Whatever She went and complained about me and when I've luckily, you know We experienced this in the industry.
It was you know what I mean? So when they came to me, they weren't like, what'd you do to her? They were like, what happened and I explained to the doctor and the manager of the the studio She had cancer in her name and I clearly triggered something with the work that I was doing and they were like oh okay cool we get it yeah we won't book her with you anymore she doesn't like you and I was like I get it I
I'm the bad guy here um so that will happen in jujitsu too a lot of times the two situations that I've noticed it and here's what's interesting I never had panic attacks until I was a black belt when I was a black belt the pandemic pandemic happened.
A lot of personal things happened in my life around that same time where my anxiety levels were the highest they'd ever been in my life. And I would say about four or five months into having my black belt,
I started having panic attacks when people would mount me. Interesting. Yes, it's usually, and I had to figure out how, like I had to talk to people and figure it out myself because I'll,
it's easy to coach somebody else when you have to listen to your own shit, you don't even do that. So usually it happens, mount is a big one because the confined feeling of having another body on top of you and on your chest and holding you down,
that's usually when people feel the biggest panic from what I've seen. - Hmm. - Is it, would you describe it as a,
and that, is that still something you're kind of battling or? - Yeah, it happens every once in a while and I really do have to talk myself through the moment. You know, luckily I have a lot of jujitsu tools that I can use.
So my, what I would do is I just put myself into a different position, whether it like might set me up for being submitted. - Something worse maybe. - Yeah, I can just work on (upbeat music) defense there. And that's usually what I do.
But a lot of times I'll just have to like stop myself and be like, okay, like, you know, you're safe, you know, you're okay, the panic is not actual physical, it's you and your head freaking out.
Yeah, that makes me think that makes me wonder if it's the something in that confinement and that stuckness that's symbolic of something else, like I'm being is it is it a word?
in your life? Because the goal of this podcast and like my purpose in Judaism, the meaning I get from it is using it, is that it's a tool and a ritual to level up us in our lives,
in our personal lives, in our relationships with how we make money and manage money and how we just experience meaning and purpose and purpose. and all,
you know, all the things we want off the mats, so that the mats aren't an escape, but they're a, you know, they're an enhancement tool. And so, and so yeah,
that's where my mind goes here, like, do you think that mount position, the physical sensation of it, the spatial, you know, just everything about it is symbolic of something you were dealing with.
Thank you. your personal life. And you don't have to share it, but I'm just wondering if it's like has to be like suffocation, like being that fear of being smothered. Yeah, on a on a bigger scale,
your jujitsu, this is my opinion, your jujitsu performance is a microcosm of whatever's going on in your life. So when I started to have panic attacks,
it didn't surprise me. me because I felt completely out of control of my life. I had, I moved down to San Diego for a job that didn't work out for several reasons. I lost five dogs over four years,
two old age three, two very tragic circumstances that clearly were out of my control. And then the stress, like the world was going through the pandemic that just added a level of stress for everyone.
because everybody was freaking out and then the stress of all of these things combined in my own personal life with You know my self -image and what was going on with me and that led into my marriage and like all of that of course if it makes complete sense that The one position in my opinion where I feel the least control is Mount It doesn't surprise me that that's where I felt the most panic.
- Yeah. So it's a, yeah, this feeling of being not in control, which is one of our major-- - Right back and like the physicalness and my body would get hot.
And it was, it's so interesting. Bodies are super interesting when you overlay them with like psychology and then, and then, when you overlay them with like the physicalness we're doing in the sport because our sport is obviously I'm biased but I really think it is a magical thing that the way that you can correlate almost everything that you do in jujitsu with some point in your life with some other thing in your life
I'm really interested to hear how you're correlating it with finances like I've never that's not one of the areas that I've focused focused on, but I can tell you that self -esteem and mental health and things like that and the things that I do work with women on are absolute connection.
So I'd really love to hear how you've made the connection with finances and how I can learn about that. - Yeah, well, in the finances I'm still, I still consider myself like a white belt or a blue belt.
And I'm, I'm, you know what? what, what happens, what happens to me is whether it's like a new business project or, or just making spending decisions or investment decisions is,
is, you know, basically make getting overwhelmed by being too big, too big, like, oh, this investment might cause me to,
you know, lose my business or or, or if I start this project, you know, it doesn't work out, like,
I'm, I'll, it's just, you know, if I don't, if I don't accomplish this thing, I'll be crushed by it. And it's this idea of what I've gotten from jujitsu is this idea of micro battles,
that if we can manage to just focus on one millimeter at a time. a time, and one, you know, second at a time, we can,
and then we stack up those, all those micro battles, they can turn into a major, a major victory. But the problem with just focusing on micro battles is you lose vision of the end goal,
the end site, and you lose motivation. And so it's this constant. So Jiu -Jitsu is a practice for me of keeping a micro mind on the long term goal, but then keeping my attention on the micro battles that are going to stack up toward that goal.
And so I've gotten, I've gotten good at that in Jujitsu, but I'm still very much a novice practitioner at doing that in, in, you know, in business,
maybe not novice, but I'm, I still like, I'm still. still not as satisfied with my progress there as I am with my jujitsu, I'd say. Um,
so like when I, if I were to find myself an amount, um, in jujitsu, I'm pretty good at just like working on one thing at a time, putting out a fire here or there.
Um, but I'd imagine sometimes in, if you're I'm in a metaphorical amount In Yeah,
dude in life sometimes I might have a freeze response Like I used to have a fight response where I was just like over at work everybody But like my survival brain,
you know, we have for fight or flight and there's also freeze which is like kind of slash flight it kind of playing dead and And sometimes I'll just like, okay, I'll just stop and procrastinate or,
you know. And so working on, one thing I really like, a piece of wisdom that I mean, I need to figure out the attribution to this, but I'm gonna keep repeating it a lot until the attribution becomes mine.
But one thing I really like in terms of just like, when you feel stuck and you feel maybe that panic attack coming on, I can't. speak to that 'cause I haven't had a panic attack, but maybe this would help toward that too is like,
if you just need, if you want to get unstuck in a moment, it's three parts, let's change your face, change your breathing and change your position.
- Change your face, like literally like go to sleep. - Yeah, change your expression on your face because I think, breathing is the is the most common advice Everyone gives a breathe relax breathe breathe breathe then you hear it from Navy SEALs talking about and it's just become very common But that you know that I don't I think a lot of people don't get a return on that because when they start they start breathing But
they don't their mood hasn't There's something that has to happen before breathing and I think changing the expression on your face for me It's just like putting on a wide grin grin. I actually learned originally from Marcelo Garcia,
watching him roll. He always rolled with this stone face. And that's how I roll in judice generally, just mouth closed. Yeah, I always breathe through my nose almost always. If I if I can help it.
And then yeah, just mouth closed and very stone face, like I get hit, like sometimes, you know, something bad happens in the role, like I just keep that stone face. And so,
and then, you know, like, like I say, controlling your breathing, generally slowing it down. That just, that just generally signals to your body, your, it slows down your parasympathetic response or your sympathetic response and helps you.
And then change your position is obvious in Jujitsu. Although it's not so obvious to your body. to do that. So that's where I go. That's where I think that it's micro position,
change your micro position. Like, yeah, maybe you can't get from mount to top close guard with a reversal. That's a big task. But maybe you can get a single inside foot position when someone has like,
you know, 10, when they have a full mount with like 10 toes in a row or cross feet, even like, maybe you could stop out or you can get an underhook back. But maybe you can't get an underhook back. and you just gotta get like a one millimeter space to get your start tucking your elbow.
And so I have certain emotional, so yeah, like, but our emotions block all these things.
Like we all know what to do. We live in the information agency, it's all on the internet. We all, a lot of us have like really smart people on our lives that tell us what to do. and we still don't do them because we have these emotional blocks and like you like you said earlier They're stored in our body a lot of time,
which is what's so useful that you jiu -jitsu is it's like a physical thing But yeah, I but But because I think changing your face first It's so useful because Or like you know when I do cardio in my classes or what?
whatever, I talk about change. I always say fix your face, fix your face. Usually at the beginning of a man, I never say it in the middle. That's genius. I love that. I'm stealing.
Yeah. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I'm glad. And I, and you're, and I think we're both changing our faces right now. Yeah. Um, because yeah, and then it just signals to the right to the body and then to the mind,
hopefully. Um, so, so I teach this and self. -defense, that your body tells your brain how to feel. And here's an example.
So when I teach women about posture and how to walk around and like standing, when you do the superhero pose, the, you know, with your hands on your hips and your feet nice and wide, that actually releases testosterone into your body.
It is, I call it nature's red lipstick and high heels. It tells your body how to feel. So if you're in a situation where you want to appear to be strong and confident,
you actually have to stand that way. Because if you close in your shoulders and your body will reflect, your brain will reflect what your body is telling it to feel by its actions.
And here's the proof. Did you, have you ever seen person who's been blind their entire life, what they do when they win something like a real person? or whatever No,
I haven't told me put their hands up in a V formation in victory Formation, that's not something they were ever taught Their bodies just know that when they feel victorious Their hands go up and if that doesn't prove that our bodies tell our brains how to feel and vice versa.
I Don't know what does wow want to do that right now Doesn't that cool? - Yeah, I feel. - Isn't that cool? So when you do need to feel something, right? You do it too, I remember.
I can give you an exact, I remember watching you at, I did, on Invitational, you did EBBI the next day. - Okay, yeah, I remember that in Austin.
- Posture, before every match. Like you were telling your body how you wanted it to feel. Most really good competitors do. do. You can see them go into almost a, Ronda Rousey is the best example that I can think of.
When Ronda Rousey used to fight, she used to almost hypnotize herself. She did not, you could see it click into place. Holly Holmes does it. When she paces before,
that is her telling her body we are, this is the mode that we're in. A lot of people do it. Not just those two. Those are the two that come tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah, Holly home definitely sticks in my mind the way she paces.
It's almost a lot of competitors. But everybody has a thing that they do. And it's different for them. I remember yours because you're, you know, you're such a good friend of mine. And I remember being there and be like,
like you were so much in the zone that day. And that's what we do. Like our bodies do give us all these signs. And if we can start to pay attention to them,
especially in in jiu -jitsu for sure I guess I've never had this conversation before but it makes so much sense that if we can change Our face our physiology how we're behaving all of that has to affect the way that we're performing in in a match for sure Yeah,
this is something I want to talk about way more In the future and like do more research on and and just think about about and write about more and then just and have another conversation about it uh because yeah it's the most important yeah because I like I like I like philosophy and I like I like the world of ideas but I only like them in so much as they they help us act and work and be and transform our
behavior in the world and this is and constructing that bridge between the mind and body is something is a that is, I see a lot more work and talk about that in the world these days,
especially post COVID. And I would just want to continue to, yeah, I just want to continue to explore that. So there's, yeah,
there's, so there's a ton of things I still want to talk about, including your, how you, how you. light be one of, I don't know what's the number of female black belts at 10th planet now,
but you're one of the first female black belts at 10th planet. What number are you specifically? I am number, let's see, I'm Eddie's number five.
And I, I think there were a total of seven women before me, two promoted by somebody else. And now we have... 22, 23 women in the world that are black belts.
I have a list. I keep all the black belts for Eddie. So I can go and like find out specifically. - Okay, nice. Yeah, 'cause that's the other thing. So yeah, we'll just say your number five out of 23. That's a nice little feather in your cap.
Yeah, 'cause that speaks to something else. You've been kind of the master. organizer of so much of what's made 10th Planet an actual organization because we're led by such an artistic,
eclectic founder and prolific founder. He's just so active and just creating new things all the time. But there's always someone in the background in that room.
helps glue things together and you've been that person. So I do want to cap this at an hour, right around an hour. And I also just want to save more things to talk about it on a future episode.
So yeah, I definitely want to get into that, how instrumental you've been for the pretend planet. But before we wrap, I just want to hear like, what are you up to right now?
How and like, what's most exciting? exciting a project or just, it doesn't have to, you don't have to be doing something new, just something that you're currently involved in. And, and yeah, tell me a little bit about like your current,
just go mission right now. So there are a couple of things. I am, I run 10th planet South Bay with PJ Barch. So I'm down here where if you drive to Mexico,
stop right before you see the border. We're in Chula Vista. An amazing. an amazing practitioner of the sport. I'm learning so much from him. He is really great at Jiu Jitsu.
He's great at communicating Jiu Jitsu and teaching. And so I'm learning, I feel like a completely different style than because he's so opposite from Eddie. Eddie's such a guard player. And Eddie is, I like to describe Eddie as an emotional Jiu Jitsu player.
That's not the right word. It's the word, it's like a tactile, right? So Eddie is like this feels good to me. So I am going to Create everything around things that that feel right in my body and that I can get my body to do PJ's approach to jiu -jitsu is so much more analytical than Eddie's Eddie's feeling Eddie feels jiu -jitsu and PJ analyzes jiu -jitsu in a way that is kind of obvious but on the same level of
genius as Eddie. So that is one thing I'm very excited about. I've been with 10th Planet South Bay. We were spring valley before for four years now. We're in Chula Vista. I help PJ run the gym.
I teach. I run my women's self defense program out of there. I also have in addition to 10th Planet Women's Self Defense, I started an organization called the Women's Self Defense.
-defense network and it is the idea is that women anywhere in the world will be able to go To my website and find a coach that's either been trained under me or verified through me that they're safe To train them and then there will also be other resources available to them like just today.
I did an event on February for big Gallentine's day So we had a whole bunch of women come in taught himself defense then we made our own own bouquets. I paired with, I teamed up with a local florist who's amazing and we made our own bouquets and then we also raised money and collected donations for a domestic violent shelter.
So those are the kind of things I'm very passionate about doing just this morning before I hopped on the podcast with you. I went and I took $400 and a car just packed full of clothing and on toiletries and things.
for the shelter. So doing stuff like that, creating situations for women to be empowered and feel strong and confident, and possibly get out of situations that they're in,
that is what I'm passionate about. Also, I'm teamed up with Lila Smaja and Heather Jo Clark and a whole bunch of other women who are 10th of Black Belt Women, and we are starting to do camps.
We just had our first fanvasion Bayesian, at Heather's pool in Boca Raton, we're gonna do the next one at South Bay, and I'm super excited about that. And the idea is, since there are so few female Black Belts in 10th Planet,
we would like to do camps featuring every one of them, and at some point if you come, you will get to train with every Black Belt who's a woman in 10th Planet. - Wow,
that's awesome. - Super cool. Those are probably the male Black Belts. thing that I'm up to right now and you know, I'm always doing self -defense seminars and Workshops and whatever.
I'm also working on a new podcast, which as soon as I have more details I will post to the world as soon as I have but yeah, I'm just I'm staying busy and training every day and Trying to Create some kind of legacy I think Yeah,
well you're you're really inspires me, especially 'cause we don't, both what you and I have in common is we don't have like a typical, we've partnered with certain 10 planet gyms,
but we haven't gone the typical route of like as soon as you get your black belt, you open your own gym, but we live in an age where there's a lot of different ways to reach people and a lot of different ways to live a rich life.
life for ourselves. And so, yeah, I'm really excited to hear how this current chapter continues. And yeah,
maybe we'll do another episode before that next camp, that camp is all, it's all women, right? - It's all women and it's all the coaches that come, our women, this last one was Lila and I,
and then we have Lila and we have Lila. Bree Stick, Amanda Lohan, and Heather. So there were five seminars. We're planning that again. And the coaches, we don't have, I think we have most of them confirmed.
Jen Dietrich, the other coach. - Oh, very cool. - Black Belt from HQ. So there's only thus far three women that are homegrown white to Black Belt under Eddie. Lila, myself,
and Jen Dietrich. She will be at the next camp. Liz Karmush. pending her not being in camp for a championship fight Yeah, she'll be one of the coaches.
I believe Nora Mora who is at 10th Planet San Diego and then maybe one more that we haven't confirmed yet And then of course the three of us who organized will also be there Okay,
great. So multiple UFC former UFC fighters and Velter fighters and and 10th Planet Yeah, HD OGs under Eddie Bravo. So that sounds exciting.
And yeah, I'm excited to just continue to keep growing alongside you. And yeah, let's definitely do this again soon.
All right. Thank you for having me on. I'm super proud of you and everything that you're doing. It's been really cool watching you pave a different path because it is there are so many guys that get their black belt and they're like,
okay I've got to go open a gym and and I Appreciate that you are doing something similar to me, which is like let's figure out something different. Let's find a new way to Be a part of the sport and add value to what we do that look like what everybody else is doing Yeah,
I could I couldn't put any better myself. That's yeah, I don't know exactly where it's gonna lead, but I just definitely want to keep doing meaningful things In and around jiu -jitsu so so yeah,
let's both both keep it up All right, Donna All right, talk to you soon. Bye